Transcript: 16 Days Per Episode: Kavan the Kid on Making The Chronicles of Bone

Kavan is back (and where Andrew is)

0:14 We are back, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for waiting for us. Um we had a little bit of a delay coming in and unfortunately, Andrew has been completely called off this week. He was so excited to see Kavan and if you're in the UK, you know what I'm talking about right now, but I just was telling Kavan in the green room. We've had some major issues at our airports and every single airport in the entire country got shut down yesterday, pretty much. And so, Andrew was unable to fly back to Spain in order to get his gear and be able to be with us this week, which is so sad. But yeah, we are back with Kavan, the man himself, Kavan the kid. And it hasn't been that long since we had you on last time, which I'm so excited that you've had two episodes come out since then, because I remember the last time your last episode just dropped

1:06 and we were watching episode three, weren't we? And then you were talking about the battle scenes and stuff that were going to be epic in the next one and now we're at episode five, the reunion and it's like flown by. It's just crazy how much stuff's happened just between those two episodes considering it wasn't even that long ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It flies, man. It's it's crazy, you know, and for me, you know, when I'm working on these, because I I spend, you know, anywhere from like usually it's like I think it's like 16 to 17 days, sometimes 20. Um I'd say like that, between 16 to 20 days to complete an episode. my months feel like days. Like I was going to say. the month of August felt like two days. And now here we are in September and then it's going

16 to 20 days per episode

1:58 to be the same thing, you know, like already like I'm like I look at the calendar and I'm like it's already September 9th. I feel like it was September 1st yesterday. Like what what's happening? I I don't even know what's happening. Thank you so much for joining us Mary. Mary filled in for Andrew yesterday who couldn't be on the live show as well as a awesome co-host. Thank you so much for that Mary. I don't know where the time's going man and how the hell are you completing these epic episodes in that amount of days? Trust me, you know, we work in advertising and we ask for that amount of days to deliver [music] like a one to minute video. So the fact that you're getting anywhere near the length of videos that you're doing is just ridiculous workflow honestly. So hours in the day aside like it's just it's almost incomprehensible, you know, like how fast you're able to get these things out. That

2:50 was actually one of my It's just how the hell you're managing to do this now, you know, considering that you're delivering at a pace at which no one else is, you know, for these epic episodes, but that sort of explains it really. It's you're just doing this all day every day, right? hence why we're sunglasses. It's not just because it's bright in here, but also because I look like a vampire under these sunglasses because I I I don't sleep, you know, I mean you know, my my usual day is is like a a day in my life is essentially I usually wake up between like 5:00 and 5:30 a.m. That first half hour to an hour is like responding to emails and and then any if I have any meetings that day, I take on the meetings and then from that moment it's into production.

A day in the life: 5am to 11pm

3:42 And then you know, I'll work until usually anywhere till about like my normal cut off time is like 11:00 p.m. Like it will be the latest I'll go and then you know, I have like 1 hour of down time to myself, and then I sleep, and then I repeat. And And this is Yeah, and this isn't like a I mean, all I I've been doing something new, which has been really really good. I've been Usually around like 6:00 p.m., I go for a walk for about 45 minutes, which I really enjoy. Yeah, I really enjoy that. And like I like going like when the sun is setting. I I just you know, enjoy like looking at the sky and stuff like that. But no, and and it's good to get get out of all of this, you know? But um But it I think there's like a thing like when you do something that you love, it can be even when it's hard, it

4:35 fuels you through those hard, you know, moments and and things like that. And And thankfully, you know, the tools have just gotten better and better. So, it allows me to make now the episodes longer and longer. As opposed to just being like, "Oh, I could I could do, you know, 15 minutes and call it a day, and and get done a lot faster." Like the last episode, I think was like just under 28 minutes. And it was And it's And I still had to cut two scenes from the script. And I hate doing that. But almost every episode, stuff has to get cut, and then I have to because I I wrote all of Chronicles of Bone like before I'd ever started. But there's like I'm constantly readjusting as I go because when I get into production, and then I have to cut I then like, "Okay, if I'm cutting this, now how am I making up for it in the next episode?"

Cutting scenes to hit deadline

5:28 You know, so it's kind of like rebuilding and repositioning at times. Um And so, because like if I wouldn't have cut those two scenes, one, I wouldn't have hit the deadline, and two, that episode probably would have ended up coming in at like 42 minutes. So, Yeah. So, you know, like my goal is always to like no matter what, the episodes will always be between 20 to 25 minutes, but you know, they might also go longer, but it's just depending on the the time I have before I get to my Totally makes sense. And I've been following a lot of what you've been doing. I even saw your Forbes article. And congrats again on that, man. That that. Thank you, man. Um I saw that Marine was awesome. I was going to say, she's been following um Zach and stuff as well, picking up on Dave's stuff. It seems like she's really got a good coverage in the space, actually. It's really good. And I saw that

Seedance 2.5: two weeks down to three days

6:27 you said to them um that Seedance 2.5 had cut comparable footage from about 2 weeks to about 3 days, but as we talked about last time, it introduced a whole load of new audio problems potentially. And yeah, they got to fix those. Yeah, right. It's like solving one thing, but then getting a whole new spate of problems in the same like so what's been your your work-around for that? Or have you found anything like that with your black videos, sort of technique or anything? So yes, the I mean, I don't have a work-around yet, and if anyone does, I am desperately asking uh like like a a begging person. If you know how to get gens with no music whatsoever, let me know what that prompt is because Aaron put something in the chat about it just today

The music problem nobody has solved

7:19 again. So I think that there's still this like concurrence that nobody really has the answer, and that he's trying to actually talk to the team at ByteDance about fixing this, you know, having an on and off switch uh toggle on and off. to be something because in Seedance 2, you can get it every single time, no problem whatsoever. Like when you just type no no background music or no music or natural sound only, whatever. It does it every like to no fail it does it every time. But for whatever reason in 2.5, you can do all the stuff and it really loves to do like especially when it reads the scene as like like if it's just a conversation scene, a lot of times I can get it with no uh music um in 2.5. [clears throat] But it'll be like if I say something dramatic and then it cuts to you, it does like a boom. And I'm like, "What? What? We don't need the dramatic impact of the cut."

8:09 Like if I want to do that, I'll do that, but like let's not. But then any any time I do any time I do action, the whole thing just music the whole way I know. The cinematic shots with action is just in it's almost un Yeah, you can't get it without it, can you? And it's like how do you stop it? Like And it's funny that two and 2.5, you know, it's not a new foundational model, so you'd think that they are related, you know, in the it's the same sort of foundational model, but they don't seem to be. There seems to be quite a shift um even then, which is like quite different to how we experience other models in the past, I guess. 100%. I mean like 2.5 is I mean on a on a quality level is mind-blowing. Like on the Like it it it for me it's it's the first jump where

9:02 when I like watch you know, my older stuff or anyone's older stuff to like what anyone's made on 2.5, it goes from like there's still a little bit of that like kind of like AI look to it, you know, to then on 2.5, it's so cinematic looking that it really just like removed that that look. And then for me the biggest thing was synthetic actors. Like the perform You can actually get like actual emotional performances out of synthetic actors, which just This me excited for when because knowing the pace that ByteDance moves, I won't be surprised if either it's the end of this year or very very early next year that we get three. And I have no doubt all of these things will take another leap. but uh it going to that music thing, the

The Moises AI workaround

9:55 workaround that I'm currently doing is there is a tool called Moises. Moises AI, m o I s e s. Um and in Moises AI you can it's it's $29.99 a month. Um but they have like a thing where you can drop it and it extrapolates your video into three tracks, dialogue, sound effects, and music. And so then you have these three tracks, you can mute the music, download your sound effects and dialogue track, bring those back in. Now depending, there can be times where the music, the way it's baked in with the sound effects, you're going to lose some of those sound effects because Moises reads it as part of the music. So what then I do is you know, whether it's Artlist or or like for me like I

10:46 have like a just from my live-action days long before, you know, doing AI, I have a massive library of sound effects. So then it's like going in and and it's actually what we did before, you know, AI baked in sound Like when I did both of the Echo well, not the second one, but when I did the first Echo Hunter film, there was no audio with AI. So like all of the you that was the piece that blew my mind. I was like, oh wow, this guy knows sound design, you know, he's coming that yeah. Yeah, so it's just, you know, but what helps with Moises specifically is like you might have to rebuild your SFX, but at least you'll every time to no fail you'll get a clean audio. So if you have your characters talking and there's some ridiculous background music, If at least get the clean audio and then go build I mean the clean dialogue and then go build your sound effects to

11:37 to supplement it. But it does it does a pretty good job at like removing the at removing the music and and and the music. tip, honestly. And Steve is right, Adobe Podcast does something similar to this as well. And I know that there's another one called Fader, f a d Does Does Adobe Podcast I thought Adobe Podcast just removed like everything. So it was like just your voice and then if there was any like because like essentially for Adobe I mean I could be wrong, but I thought like with Adobe Podcast like you know if like we were doing this and I was outside in the wind right now and it's like like it would remove all of that so it's just like my voice is clear. But I'm wondering like in the sense of because like when we're doing this we want to keep our sound effects. We just don't want the music. I think it does

12:28 remove music now. It may be a recent update. Like where you can get where and and and keep sound effects like you said. thing that you just described, you know, three channels of audio essentially like dialogue, sound effects, and music like separated out into three separate channels. But yeah, there are a few others. Actually there are there's some vibe coded AI tools out there too, actually. A guy I know sent me one because I had I started a music group specifically on WhatsApp to talk about, you know, tools that people are making just for music. And this guy um before the idea of downloading what's called stem wavs, you could only download MP3s and wavs from, you know, Udio and stuff. He wanted to create a stem splitter, which is exactly the same thing. You know, it's using AI to look at the frequencies of audio spectrums and then separate them out into their separate components as

13:18 best you can. And then you get that bleed that you said from sound effects to music. I was trying to Google it just now. So there's another one that I downloaded, but for my pace and and and how fast I have to move, it wasn't it didn't work for me. But there's one there's a tool that I downloaded that I'm not lying, it breaks every micro sound. Like every frequency and it's like like it's like you know, I can't even put like show on the screen Yeah, yeah. And you can literally go through and click on it, delete it, click on it, delete it, click on it, delete it. And if like so if you don't mind spending like an hour to a 1/32 Seedance clip, you can. And and it'll be flawless with no music, but every one of the sound effects and all of that because

RipX DAW and deleting frequencies by hand

14:12 that's how good it was. And so like I was messing around with it, but like that's what I did. I spent like 1 hour working on you know, deleting each frequency that had a music sound in it. So I was like I was just like, yeah, I can't do this every time. You know what would be a lot easier? Just no music in the first place. Like instead of all of this like effort to get rid of One can dream, right? Oh, jeez. Let me find what the name of that tool Oh, yeah. Someone's asking what was the name of the insane audio spectrum tool. but we can continue while I search because I I love seeing you nerd out about audio. And of course you're sitting on a whole bank of sample stuff, you know, as you should be even if you you know, get perfect audio because you always need those fill-ins or sometimes you can layer it up as well and then create extra sound design elements

15:05 and stuff. It's a bit like upscaling, you know, the best um upscaling I've seen like technique-wise is using some variation of opacity from the original under underneath with some opacity on top and upscaled and stuff. It's the same thing with audio. You can essentially, you know, add sound effects with full audio waveforms on top of maybe sound effects that Seedance generated that were quite weak, like uh you know, when you've got like a an armor and a sword hitting an armor and it's supposed to have this massive like clang sound. You can just add that more of that in post on top to layer it and stuff. Some some Seedance stuff. It's But as you said, it's about how much effort do you want to go to for that specific sound and scene and how, you know, you know, required is that. Um within every I think, you know, like now,

15:56 you know, spending, you know, the amount of time like to go through and remove all the frequencies is one thing, but no matter what like, I mean, as we've always said like when I was here last time like sound is so beyond important. So like you know, definitely spend the time to build and and and put all of those sound effects together and build those sound effects so they're they're correct. Um but before I forget, the name of the tool is RipX DAW, d a w. So uh r I r I p x space d a w. RipX DAW. You can run your stuff through there. It'll break it into every single frequency and then, you know, it's uh it's you got to listen and find Usually the frequencies are like the music ones are always on the bottom. They're always the like low, especially when like what Seedance uh

16:47 loves to do is uh at least in my case is um like the the the bars, the hums, like uh like the like uh just like this ambient drone. Fascinating, isn't it? And like the the way that you can break it down now, like to the point like you said where you can have full level spectrum stuff and then pick it out, but otherwise you can just, you know, find the best tool for doing it. And I think other people have been obviously looking for this. There's loads of people in the chat talking about like various ways in which they've tried to get rid of audio music. And we've been seeing it in the groups as We were talking in the green room and I want to sort of line this up for the next time that you come on because it's awesome what your team at Phantom X are doing, man. With five shows now like Mike

Phantom X and five shows

17:37 Jay Mitch is watching. He's got the Sage Savs X Exile Protocol and then I was telling you how New Exile just dropped yesterday, episode seven and a new Sage drops this coming Tuesday, also episode seven. So, you know, be sure to watch both of those and then A's and Ratha are both uh their newest episodes are they're both on episode three that have come out. So, they're they're currently working on episode four. Um but yeah, I mean you know, every one of their shows just blows my mind and what I love about it is they're all so uniquely different. So, you know, you you like I think that's one of the things that we we just, you know, that I love so much about Phantom and and everybody that, you know, that that, you know, is a part of us is um we all have, you know, such

18:28 different creative visions and and so it makes it great for just being able to enjoy, you know, all these different shows and stuff and and, you know, we have some some exciting announcements coming soon. I can't wait to hear more about it and have the whole squad come on like you Yes. Yes, that would be I think that would be awesome, you know, get get the the four guys on here. Um you know, that would that would be incredible. Uh while we talk, I'm going to lower my blinds just real fast so I Of course, yeah, yeah. sun. When When I first started when I first started this morning, you know, it was dark. The sun is out. The sun is really rising on you now. What time is it for you there right now? It must be 8:30 or

19:19 something? Yeah, yeah. 8:30 a.m. but already feels like noon, you know? I mean, you've been in meetings before this. So, yeah, you're you're busy, busy, busy. But you learn saying like RipX DAW. Thanks so much. What a name like who written by an engineer that like what a name riff ex RipX, I know, yeah. It's I mean, it was it was I was kind of mind-blown. I mean, I was when I first uh, you know, when I first used it. I was just like like if I was doing something, you know, where I had you know, let's say a theatrical release or something like that and we're using Cinedeck and we're running into those issues. That's the type of tool I would use where like you have to be so granular of like getting all of those little things out. Um, but um, you know, in

20:10 in more of a quick pinch when you have quick deadlines and stuff like that, Moises is is the win and then understanding no matter what you're going to have to build back some some sound effects using, you know, your your sound effects Well, the last little geeky thing I just thought about when you said that um, on the audio thing and then we'll get into the latest episode and ask the audience exactly how you want to watch this because we have it in three parts. You know, let us know in the comments whether you'd like to watch it back-to-back or whether you'd like to have a break every sort of 10 minutes and then we can ask Kavan about how that 10-minute chunk was made etc. etc. But I've just thought like maybe in Cinedeck 3, in 4, I don't know when it will come, but essentially we're going to need like Dolby 5.1 surround sound, you know, [clears throat] because we are going to want it in theaters and cinemas and you're going to want that natively baked into the video creation, aren't you? Because

The wishlist: 5.1 surround and true log AI

21:01 otherwise you have to do all of this post-processing in order to have like a surround sound type thing. So, it could be that you have some enterprise level access to Seedance 3 or something where like cinema version, you know, with surround sound generation. That would be amazing. I mean, I think all of those like everything with with AI, right? It's or or not even just AI, with tech. With the advancement of us as humans, it's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. Yeah, right. So, it's like when we'll get it because it'll probably I have no doubt like it'll be the same like eventually we'll get log AI like true log where it's no different than if we shot on a camera, you know, in log so that we have the full access to the color spectrum to where when we go into grade then we can do like really, you know, finite grades. Um and yeah,

21:51 I think the same needs to happen with with audio to where we have it at that level. but, you know, I think when when I look just like every time if like and I know this is like beating a dead horse of like saying it, but it's like it just blows my mind every time when I look back at whatever I was doing at this exact moment last year to now and the quality difference, I'm just like holy smokes. I'm just I think the only thing that like people that weren't here last year can't realize it. That's the only reason it can feel like you're banging on it because it's not. It's ridiculous. It's truly the most insane thing in my lifetime I've ever seen in my career. You know, the last year's progress in AI is just so much more than anything else that's ever happened in my career. It's kind of wild and people don't seem to see

A year of progress that still doesn't feel real

22:42 it that weren't involved in the space this time last year. Maybe they're just getting involved now realizing how good it is, but they haven't seen the progress from like a year of video output. It's truly mind-boggling like I mean, we're in what? Almost the end of 2026. uh I watched something of mine I think it was from early 2024. And I believe that's like Runway Gen 1 Like, that's how fast it went. And when you watch that stuff, it's just like woof, you know, like But, uh, but you know, I'm always proud of all the projects because no matter, you know, even if they look like a potato now, it's all part of the journey and, you know, and the experience. And that's, you know, like, just how it goes and uh, I think like with with every new advancement there comes, you know, new creative challenges that you have to take to

23:35 approach it. But now now we're we're, you know, we're at a point where we can actually make uh, films and shows and things like that and generate a real audience and, you know, not an audience like just inside the AI community, but like a general audience for people who aren't even, you know, AI users or maybe even people who are on the fence and, you know, like even what we've seen at Phantom, like with a lot of our shows, like some of the comments that we get a lot is, uh, you know, "Normally I hate AI, but I love this." So, like, you know, like, I think what what that really then just comes down to is and, you know, and I will always say this, just because we have the tools and we can move so fast, um, doesn't necessarily mean you should. I think it's always great to like go express stuff, be creative, go make things. But if you're going to like really lock in to make a

It's not content, it's storytelling

24:27 film or to make a show or do take the time to like really write it, you know, spend that time like like that's that's what everyone, at the end of the day, like that's what we're all looking for whenever we log on to a streaming platform. These, you know, streaming platforms have millions of dollars that they put into these shows, yet, you know, 90% of them are complete garbage. And it's just because they're they're they're just rushing through scripts, getting it out there because, you know, the word that I hate hearing is content. It's like we need more content. But I'm like this stuff shouldn't technically be content. It's storytelling. It's art. You know, it it is expression. If we start looking at it like that again, um you know, hopefully then we'll we'll see an an an an increase in in great I think that's especially powerful coming from you because you've, you know, got such

Why this series doesn't get the AI hate

25:18 an amazing audience for this. Actually, Roark, when I asked Roark about what I should ask you before this episode, he actually you left me a voice note saying like, "How is it that your stuff is so loved when there's a lot of hate for AI right now?" And I think you've just pressed on that really well. You know, you've built this series which is so loved now. Like 40 million plays in like the series start. And it's kind of wild that people are so on board with it. That people are saying, "When's the next episode? You know, what's going to happen?" And it's like do you attribute it to anything else other than you've just built such a beloved uh series as to why yours is like getting so little hate in AI. Like I mean for real like YouTube has disabled the like the dislike button, but I have a

26:09 Chrome extension to bring it back. And you have like the highest ratio of likes to dislikes ratio I've ever seen. Yeah, I I I haven't checked that. So I got a little nervous when you said that. I was like, "Oh boy." No, it's truly amazing especially considering the millions of views that each episode gets. You would imagine that this would reach a wider audience of slop AI slop, you know, but it doesn't seem to. It just seems that there's such a positive sentiment from your dedicated fans on your channel that it like algorithmically rolls it out to more positively minded people that are more embracing. And you've found this like wave. It's incredible, dude. Like people want to know how you're doing it. I do I do get a lot of those like comments of like normally I hate AI, but I really enjoy this or or things of that nature, but uh no, I I do accredit it to uh

27:00 you know, I think multiple factors, but the first one being like it's it's a story that that people have enjoyed and and you know, you you build up, you know, stakes for characters. Um you know, something I always focus on um and this is like with any story is uh I really like character design, like costumes and things like that. I always feel like it doesn't matter whether the character has like a big or small role. Um I look at it as like, especially if I'm making something more like in the sci-fi world or fantasy world, not necessarily like dramas or things like that or historical accurate pieces, but like this, this is fantasy show, right? It's like every character should look like an action figure you'd want to buy. Uh you know, because you know like there's there's some like for instance, even with superheroes, there's there's some superheroes where like their

Every character should look like an action figure you'd buy

27:51 costumes are wack. And so it's like you're like, "I don't want to buy that toy of that guy. It looks lame as [__] you know?" But with Chronicles, I really try to make sure that like every character has like a really dope design. Yeah, you know, and so that's that's a a big thing for me is is the the character designs I think also help. Um I think sound and music help, but at its core, it's you know, it's it's the story. It's uh You know, I think my favorite story you said in the last show was um you know, the idea of like actually having the mask. You You got it from a guy in Spain, was that right? Uh the Nemo mask, yeah, Captain Nemo. Yeah, the Nemo mask, that was it. A real mask from a maker in Spain, and do you buy the sort of transferred rights or something like that? Um Yeah, I had I asked like essentially uh had him

The Nemo mask from a maker in Spain

28:43 sign a contract for the rights of the mask. Um He he just He was just ecstatic that like that it was going to be in it. I would totally be too. Imagine that you were a mask maker where you're like, "Oh my god, someone who's a really incredible filmmaker is reaching out in order to get a character to have, you know, all of like it would be very honorable." In fact, I'm sure you'll get many donations in the future for stuff like that. Like, "How many of your characters start from physical objects?" was a question that Andrew had from the follow-up from last time. Like, you showed us some sketches, you showed us like the masks and stuff. Like, do you have like every character coming from a physical object of some sort? no, not all of them. I wish. Uh, so, the collector which he's uh, like is is like a really like like

CVS bandages, Spirit Halloween and his own jacket

29:35 I like I said, they're like Temu versions. So, his was like yellow raincoat with my face wrapped in bandages that I bought from CVS. And uh, if anyone saw me at Upscale, I was wearing like a black like black hat. Yeah. That I wore that hat. Like, as you can see like even in the t-shirt here with him, like his hat doesn't look like that. Like, but like that's the base design of the character and then I stick it into At this time, it was Nano. I've been using more Seedream lately, but like at this time it was Nano. And then, you know, you just make iterations, take that iteration, plug it back in, blah blah, and then it's just like kind of like this until eventually you get to final result, right? And then, uh, the last lost boy, I mean, the last lost boy out of all the characters is probably the most like down to the detail accurate because like that jacket he wears like I own that exact jacket. It just doesn't have the holes. But

30:28 I mean, like that jacket is exactly that jacket. The mask, it just doesn't have the like battle marks on it. You know, my version is just clean, but like it's the exact Um, Captain Hook, Captain Hook is probably the most Temu along with the collector version because like the mask for him was just like a spirit Halloween mask like a like a half skull and then I wore the same jacket that I wore for the last Lost Boy but then like changed the colors and style and things like that. Nemo Nemo's is really funny because it's a mask and then I just took a white like bedsheet and then like kind of like wrapped it around myself like Roman style, you know, and

31:13 then stuffed that in and and then did the iterations. It's so much fun too like to like take these objects in your real life and then think about how to use them within your scenes and stuff. I remember also last time you were talking about going through like submitting some like copyright applications and stuff like that. And so I'm imagining that that's got to help, right? Like having physical objects like this, having like signed off rights to them from creators and the masters and stuff like that. It's got to help with this type of like you know, basically submitting evidence I suppose of human involvement, human artifacts, human objects, you know, things that we're being inspired by and evidence and stuff. But are you grabbing like screen recordings, color grading, all of that stuff for evidence as well or how does that work? Yes. So

Copyright, trademark and proving human authorship

32:05 with the episodes themselves, still working on that, right? To secure like the you know, like So what we what we do have is like the name is trademarked. The story, like the scripts, the the world book, all that, those are all under copyright. Character designs that started with like human looks like where it was me in a costume and then through iterations became this, those are under copyright. So like then you can actually copyright that that look of a character because that's what the whole thing is. It has to start from you know, essentially a human element at least as of the current moment with the copyright office. I do think that's going to change in the future. I just like like we're like still in the wild west time. So like all these things are you know, the copyright office

32:55 is just playing catch-up. Um but yeah, like right now like you have to you know, in all report back if whenever I I get these answers of like on the on the getting the episodes themselves of like proving because like they try to essentially still claim that like if the you know, the the shots were AI generated even if you're editing them adding music color grading them doing all this stuff that like initially that they say like oh well, no, it's still AI. And so we're not going to do it. And so like I'm I'm in the process right now trying to prove the fact that it is not, you know, there's so much my my as 16-hour work days will go to say otherwise that it is not just like done, you know, um Uh but yeah,

33:46 I think I think all that stuff changes. I think a lot of that has to do more so not with what we are doing as creators and things like that, but how the model was built and trained and and all of those things in the copyright office you know, trying to be amenable to all sides of you know, specifically the Hollywood overlords. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad to check in on you on that honestly because there's people in Europe that are doing their own, you know, copyright protection. You know, we've got extra layers of GDPR and other things that we have to worry about. So it's like hearing it from different places, you realize exactly what you have to do with locally and even if you want to start going down that route, you know, here's the stuff you got to start with. And most people haven't even thought about it which is they're already out of the table. You know, there's no evidence collecting during the creation process, for example. And so, you can't really go back and fake this, you know, you have to actually collect

34:38 it whilst you're really making it, you know, so People have been I know I do know that like with enterprise plans, it's a lot easier Right. Oh, that's to obtain that. Yeah. So, um yeah, that is one of the other options on the It's all on the bleeding edge of everything though, isn't it? Like everyone's just discovering this and you're at the real forefront of all this. So, again, it's so good to get a check-in with you as and when and so, thank you so much for sharing, you know, and being so kind. Always always excited to be here and get to hang. You're the best, man. So, audience members that are watching, get your questions ready for Kavan. If you haven't seen episode five yet, you're going to be in for a treat. I want to know as well from you guys, would you like to watch it back-to-back-to-back, I.e. the full 30-minute chunk, or should we do 10-minute chunks and then have a break and then have

35:31 a sort of round-up discussion? Let me know in the comments. My last question, whilst we wait for all of the people to answer that ask their questions was you mentioned obviously that the battle scene was the hardest thing that you'd had to do. And that was as we were finishing the last episode. Now, there's so much emotion in this latest one. What was more difficult? Was it like you know, more emotional or the battle harder, you know, which was the which was the crux of the like the battle scene again in this one Oh, really? Another battle scene Uh unlike in Battle of the Bay, which is essentially a bunch of Mordane knights fighting Nemo's knights, which is a little bit easier to like kind of jam because it's like just like, you know, two different knight

The hardest scene in Chapter 5

36:23 styles fighting each other while we're following a couple of characters through the chaos. This has like a bunch of individual characters, you know, from Lord Set to Tink to Robin Hood, Last Lost Boy, Little John, Mordan Knights, the Blood Guard, Outlaws that run with Robin's crew. So, it was just like it's like too many like like char- like thank thank the Lord that there's 50 reps now, you know, in 2.5 because like oh my gosh. But yeah, that was that was tough. Like even in some of the gens, you know, like when I was going through it like one of the things is like every now and then suddenly like the Last Lost Boy is like or it'd be like Robin Hood but he has the Last Lost Boy mask on. Or, you know, there was like weird things that were kind of like happening. So, you know, you

37:14 have to like keep re-running it to to get the like the right like this is it. Um so, uh yeah, that that scene was was definitely And because like it's it's taking place on like like an alley kind of street, you know, between the canyons. So, like it's not like vast to where like it gives you more room to spread the stuff out. Like everything's so like and and tight and contained. So, yeah, it was that was that scene was really difficult and really hard and took a lot of time. Um you know, the dialogue stuff with where we're at with 2.5 now is is a lot to do than I I feel like like it's a lot easier because it takes such good It's it's really it's you know, like a lot less gens. Let's say that to like actually get the shot and be like yep, that's the

38:04 one. Whereas like fight fight there's still so many variables. Yes, yes. Chaos, right? It's controlled chaos and how you can control that. Well, and like and even if you're giving it like the most specific like look, this is what I wanted to do and And like I'm going to do something else. And you're why? How do you get this beast to do exactly what you want? Like, I can understand how it's like, listening more to the conversational basics, you know, extreme prompts. But then it is Like, think about just what we were talking about like 10 minutes ago. Like, how much of a jump that it can A, listen to all of this context and prompt, and then B, even attempt a video generator. And then we get angry at the fact that it gets like one or two things in its like thing wrong. And we're like This is unbelievable compared to Runway Gen 1. Like, it wouldn't

38:57 even Oh, yeah. They're not even comparable. Yeah. Like, I I think for me, the thing that I like I get the that that like for 2.5, like the clear-cut winner for me out of everything is the you know, since I use synthetic actors for this and not work with real actors like I have in the past in other projects. Um, I think one of the things, you know, that like we didn't even have in 2.0 was like subtleties in in performance. [clears throat] And like like for instance, you'll see like in the opening scene of this one like little things like when when Gaia, the queen, knocks on the door and Orla is there with the Shadow Knight and she like is like kind of like And then like and you can kind of see in her face she's nervous. And there's like a few like subtleties in like her mouth and like the way it reacts that feel significantly more

Synthetic actors and micro-expressions

39:48 natural and human. Uh those are the things because like, you know, when when in actual acting, that's like kind of the actor's strongest power is is is all of those little micro expressions. And I don't think we, you know, it's not there like completely yet, but like to go from like essentially almost no micro expressions to now like we're able to get like all of these little subtleties was so exciting. So then that's like kind of what gets me all even more hyped up for you know, what does next year look like and the year after and then like soon I'm like, oh man, like, you know, I'm still like I'm all for, you know, actual actors and stuff, but at the same time like I I think there's no like it's again, it's not a matter of of of if, it's just a matter of when. Like at some point or another like the synthetic actor is going to be able to do everything the same as an actor. It's just when. I

40:40 agree and as you said, it's all eventual and it will always be a choice and it can always be a choice, you know, and that I think it's so interesting to see what we're going to see in the future, all the hybrid stuff, all the pure AI stuff, all the no AI stuff, you know, like it's going to be a real interesting mix of all of it and I'm I'm all for all of it. Um I'm so glad you set up for part one by the way with the opening scenes and stuff because it is epic and it looks like looking at the comments, definitely the 10-minute chunks. I think Mary's going to [__] herself I think like so I'll give her a break between clips apparently. You're the best Mary. I love you. You're hilarious. Right, with all let's go guys. Let's watch part one. Get your questions ready as we watch it. You

CHAPTER 5, PART ONE

42:38 know, you're not at all what I The silent creature who spilled more blood for the Mordane than any Mordane ever has. And yet all this time I've spent with you you've barely even looked in my I'll admit I was afraid of what my time here might Regardless, I'm thankful to you. It does make me wonder, though is there still some of the old you in According to the tales, you haven't spoken a word since the day Varek turned you. Were you too close

43:24 to death? Is there a person in there at all? Or do you simply choose not to speak? You've had every opportunity to do with me as you please. Yet you haven't. Did you love someone once before you were turned? Do

44:15 you even remember who you were before all this? Is he masked? Yes, my queen. It's good to see you back on your feet. Your king has requested you return to his side at High Lawn. He's ready. Excalibur

45:08 merely left a scar, but he's fully healed. Then prepare for the journey. You two leave at dawn. I I know nothing of the battlefield. Varek was quite clear. My duty was to see him healed. Your duty is whatever your king commands it to be. I do not care where you think you Your king ordered you to tend to his Shadow Knight and see to his every need. Until Varek releases you from that order, you will continue to do exactly make

45:59 yourself presentable. Desmond is returning. Garrett! Come on, Buck! Give me five copper on Garrett. You lost five on the last match. Yeah, but it wasn't Garrett. Five more! With

47:01 the knights you brought from Blackmere, we're ready. The men are hungry to take the Middle Realm from these Mordane bastards. 500 years under Mordane rule. I'd say they've had it long enough. I won't lie, Arthur. I was a little wounded when you sent me up here and took Blackmere without me. 20 years at your side and that's the thanks I get. I should have sent you home to Camelot. Your wife already wants my head for keeping you this long. Ah, the old hag will get over it. Speaking of old hags, how's the wizard? Merlin is Merlin.

47:55 Still filling your head with his cautionary tales, I suppose. Even when you were just a lad, I knew there was something about you. Long before you ever pulled that sword. Who's that? Gawain's younger brother. He's quick. One of my best. Shall we go

48:54 again? Piss off. Your grace. Get up, lad. I'm sorry about your brother. Gawain was one of the finest knights of It was a privilege to fight by his side. Thank

49:39 you, your grace. He spoke very highly of you. Said you lived up to the myth. Walk with us. incredible, man. Oh my god. And you said the subtle acting differences, the subtle noise differences. Eric here is pointing out the subtle details in the sound design. Crucial to the storytelling, especially in this opening 10-minute sequence, I think. It's really crucial to set up what's coming later in the episode. And it's amazing, dude. Thank you. Yeah, it's then, you know, it

Breakdown: the Shadow Knight, Excalibur and Gareth

50:27 was fun because like you know, the one of the big mysteries around the show is obviously who is the Shadow Knight. Um and you know, last time we saw him was in prologue six, which was, you know, quite a long time ago, when he fought Arthur, and Arthur, you know, slashed him across the chest with Excalibur. And, you know, he's a vampire, and all vampires can uh heal from their wounds, but that's kind of the power of Excalibur is Excalibur makes them It's like it treats them like a regular person. Like if you get stabbed in by Excalibur, like a vampire can't heal from that. So, then, you know, they they can be wounded. They can be killed with that sword. And so, um at the And then, at the end of chapter one is when Orla because Orla was with uh with Vorin, and

51:18 Vorin was the youngest Mordane who was killed, and like that's the whole when they're talking about taking Blackmere and all of that. Uh he was killed by Arthur. And then, Orla and the Shadow Knight managed to escape. And so, but because she's not uh a warrior, Varek looks down upon her because all vampires uh like have like are essentially especially like pure vampires, like ones that haven't been turned, but were born they all like are essentially very much similar to like Spartans. Like from a very young age are like trained in battle, you know, men or women. They're all trained in battle. So, he kind of looks down on her because she's not, you know, her and Voren were weren't overly like you know, they're like the they just enjoyed like the finer things in life. Let's put it that way. So, they weren't overly,

52:09 you know, great warriors. Um, so um, so it's fun now that we catch up with them um, because we hadn't seen, you know, the last time we'd seen them is when Varek gives her those orders that get referenced there at the end of chapter one. Um, and then uh, another thing a lot of a lot of this stuff in that those opening scenes kind of tie back to prologue six um, and where, you know, Gareth, the character we just got introduced to there is the younger brother of Gawain. And Gawain, you know, he didn't have any lines, but he was in prologue six. He's the knight that like is wearing the ninja mask that the shadow knight killed. And so, that's when Gawain died. And so, um, you know, Arthur Arthur feels somewhat responsible for that because you know, of of they went on that that

53:00 covert mission to to take down Blackheart. Um, but you know, along the way they lost uh, they lost Boris and Gawain and Boris being uh, Lancelot's older brother. And um, and then obviously Gawain being Gareth's older brother. So, yeah, it was it was a it was a lot of fun to to like, you know, explore those scenes. And I think that's like one of the fun thing about having all these characters is we we we show, you know, the different where all these characters are coming from and their motivations and all that. They're all different for for each individual Right. And it's honestly so inspiring to hear it from someone that's thought so deeply about the world that they're building. And you're so far into it now, you know, like others that are just starting out maybe a series may be just like shocked at how in-depth you're thinking about the interconnectivity of all your characters between episodes and stuff like that. It is truly inspiring. There's

53:53 so much like people coming in about asking questions. One question here was why does the queen ask him ask if the Shadow Knight is masked? Oh, so that's the thing we find like what Varek explains at the end of chapter one. Orb is now only the second person in all of the realms who has seen the Shadow Knight without his mask. So only Varek only Varek at that time knew the Shadow Knight's true identity. And then what he tells her when he like gives her that thing he was like he essentially says like if I hear like who his real identity is from someone else I know it'll be you that spilled the beans because nobody else knows who he is. So even the queen doesn't know. of the Shadow Knight. He has to always be masked. So that's why she asks if he's masked

54:45 because she can't come in and see his face because that that goes against you know the the order that Varek had put forth. Great question that. Black Lives tuning in been loving Chronicles. And Whiskey Woven just saying like how incredible all the details and how precise it all is and everything. It is truly amazing man. It's next level stuff like there must be so many people like going how is he doing this? Millions of millions of views on every episode. It's just a continued thing that's growing on YouTube and it's just like I I don't know of anything bigger in the AI space truthfully. I think you really nailed it. Like the just the quality It's amazing. So guys let's get into part two. Get your questions ready for part two. Look at the little fine details. Look at all of these little bits like filling the world. I'm loving all these questions that

CHAPTER 5, PART TWO

55:35 you guys are asking honestly. It's so cool. Let's check it out. Didn't know if I should remove my armor When the king says walk with us, Gareth, he generally means now. Tristan says you're one of his best. He does? He usually just tells me what I'm doing There's considerably more of that to That sounds more like him. He tells me you're one of his finest I'd say I'm probably the best of the lot You're speaking to the king. I know. Then

56:28 perhaps a little humility. Would you prefer I lie? The farther we push into the middle realm, the more difficult it becomes for a few men to command every part of this I need several knights near me whom I can trust to lead when called upon. I'd like you to be a knight of [music] Excalibur. Now you kneel, you idiot. Stand for those

57:24 who cannot stand alone. Fight with honor. Serve with courage. And let no darkness turn you from [music] what is right. By my word, rise a knight of [music] Excalibur. My prince, there's

59:08 a fairy sitting alone in the market square. I think it's her. Don't say her name! She is beneath a name. Summon the Blood Guard and have a company ready to move. I

1:00:34 don't think you brought enough men. I've missed you, Tink. And our special time we spent together. This is the last place I expected to find you. But then again, like a foul stench, word of your presence travels quickly. Why Horns Canyon? I could ask you the same. Something tells me you've missed me. Now we are finally reunited. You'll be with me forever. Begging for death. Look at all that confidence. Where was it when you belonged to me? You were such an obedient little fairy Always doing exactly as you were told. That's the Tink think Because your face says otherwise. You

1:01:48 remember your home, don't you? I've kept it just the same as when you You still think you have some claim over You lost that a long time ago. Did I? Tell me, did you ever find your lost Your great love, Neverland is gone, Tink. Everything you ran to is gone. It's time to come home. To the only home you ever truly had. You know, Lost Boy. Tonight is just the beginning of

1:02:34 finding out how long eternity can really be. Even with your magic, you know how this ends, Tink. Get back in your box and we can go back to the way things I'm going to rip you limb from limb. One at a time. Until you are nothing but a stump with no eyes, no nose, no tongue. Just your ears. So you can hear the screams of disgust as they look at you. So be it. I

1:05:26 told you how this was going to end. Oh my god, why couldn't [laughter] I get there? Oh my Oh dude, you know when you were saying how real it is, I actually winced when buddy got one an arrow in the knee. I was like, Yeah, an injury. I was just like, no. I could take the throat, I could take the other things, but the knee I was like, an arrow in the knee. Arrow in the knee would suck. Yeah, so you know In regards to yeah, on regards to Tink, you know, so you know, she's incredible she's incredibly powerful, but you know, she doesn't have like super strength. you know, her fighting style is very much you know, fast attacks, nimble

Breakdown: Tink, fairy dust and the Prince of Torment

1:06:19 and things like that. And then like when it comes to like you know, burning people and stuff like that, so that's all through which actually gets explained like I haven't gotten to you know, we're still in the story so I'm going to explain it. It's a little spoiler here of what's to come, but like that particular power comes from fairy And she only has so much because all the fairy dust is in Neverland. So, she has to use it more sparingly. That's what you have to think about this stuff, man. For real, it's like it's just a continuity stuff. You need this level to pull it off, you Yeah, and you know, and then like what we'll see you know, coming up here is is you know, what what their intention is with War Set. But you know, with her like having to go toe to toe with War Set who's you know, one of the most I would you know, rank him in like the top four

1:07:10 most powerful members of the Mordane Empire, you know, because he is one of the brothers of Varek. He is a pure vampire and uh I mean, he's he's the worst. He's the worst out of all of them because not necessarily the most powerful, that definitely would fall to Varek in the sense of the most skilled and things like that. But Varek is more so like power hungry, you know, he wants to be a ruler and an overlord where where Lord Set is very much his his sole enjoyment comes from the suffering of others. So, that's why he he's called the prince of torment because all he loves to do is torture. And so, uh if you know, for any of you that love like old uh fantasy films and things like that, one of my all-time favorite movies is The Princess Bride. And so, I took inspiration when Tink says that line, it's essentially the same line

1:08:03 that uh Wesley says to the king when he's like, you know, when they're like, "So, the death." And he's like, "No, to the pain." And then he says like, "I'm going to like cut everything off except for your ears." It's the same thing because what Tink is saying to him is like for Lord Set, death won't mean anything to him like if you kill him because all he cares about is suffering. And so, what she wants to do is make him suffer. And in order and because vampires can't die unless you know, they're killed like they'll just live forever. Her what her plan is and what she wants to do is to make him a stump with no ear I mean, a no nose, no eyes, and no tongue, and just be this this stump of a person for eternity. You know, like like essentially like where you're at such a point you're just begging for death, but you won't get it. Uh

1:08:55 that's like Tink's like grand plan there is because of he, you know, she was enslaved by him for 10 years. Um and so, that, you know, like but that's where she makes that mention where he was like, "That was the obedient fairy that I remember." And then she goes, "Really? Your face says otherwise." Cuz he has those scars on his face and vampires typically heal, you know, from their wounds. But in the case with with Tinkerbell and her magic, similar to Excalibur, her her wounds stick like through the magic she has. Like they actually damage vampires and like she can she can kill them and wound them because, you know, she's she operates under that that same magical sphere. That totally makes sense. And what was it called in the Game of Thrones? Was it Valyrian steel? Or there was some type of like steel Valyrian steel

1:09:47 is what could kill the Night Walkers. That and and dragon dragon stone or or something like that. The dragon glass. Dragon glass. Dragon glass, that was it. You know, it's all things in the worlds that need to make sense. You know, you can make up physics, you can make up stuff as long as you have continuous the same stuff, you know, the law won't change. And That's that's, you know, the the that's something, you know, me and the guys at Phantom, we always talk about and and, you know, pull our hair out over is like when we see, you know, like when when for instance, you know, in my opinion, one of the greatest stories and IPs ever was Star Wars. And then once Disney took over, you know, they've they've murdered it because they they stopped like you can create whatever story you want as a continuation and a spin-off as long as it lives within the

Establishing the rules of your universe

1:10:38 established rules that the fans have come to know. But once you start deviating from that, you're you're having people who have been lifelong fans suddenly be like, "Well, that's that's not right." That would be like if all of a sudden in reality we started deviating from the rules of reality that make no like sense, you know? And so, like whatever story you're telling, it can be the most fantastical, you know, never real life, they but everything has to have like a an established set of rules that the characters are operating under. Um and so, you know, like, because that always drives me crazy with Star Wars is like we're talking about, you know, a franchise that printed money. And then you look at like the last movie like flop, you know, like what was it, Mandalorian and Grogu? It's just I I don't know. I think they're so lost on that and um you know, and and stuff like that. So, um

1:11:29 yeah, it's important to always establish the rules of the universe that you're creating and then live within those rules. Totally. And it's a such a hard thing to do, you know? As you said, that's the thing you're having so many meetings about with all the team and you're scratching your head over all this. So, that's what you want to do is just sense check, I imagine. Especially when you're working so many hours in every day, it's just like, "Did this make sense, you know? Does this work with the rules? Does this work?" But I bet it's all baked into your head. That's what you said last time as well, working with other people. I think I live more in Chronicles of Bone. Yeah, I live more in the Chronicles of Bone world than I live in the real world at this point. That's [clears throat] crazy to think about, but actually in reality, with the amount of hours you're doing, it's so true. And it's I wonder what it would look like, you know, the MD file of your brain and the Chronicles of Bone, you know, like

1:12:19 all the notes, all the show notes, all the just thinking in there. Oh, it would look wild, dude. Oh, man, there's like we we Mike and I always talk about this. There's this other story I wrote that like I was writing as a a novel um for like before AI, like like and it's like essentially I actually made a trailer of it, like a fake trailer. It's called Untold. Um and it's it's like it's like as if like Star Wars met Game of Thrones, met like Lord of the Rings and things like that. Um but it's more like, you know, like sci-fi but with like knights and things like that. Um, and like I have like one Google Doc that's just like 600 or 700 pages of of note like and they're like in a no order. Like just like a throwing paint at the wall notes of like, you know, but and that one

Untold, and a 700-page Google Doc

1:13:11 like you know, that maybe will be a project that happens down the road because there's a lot of characters in Chronicles and that one has like even even more characters. So, I'll definitely to make something like that need to be at a point where you know, it isn't just me working on it. There's a whole team because no matter what to do a show at that that level the episodes will have to be at least an hour. Right. I was telling Mary yesterday by the way, one of my craziest finds on YouTube recently is the fact that M. Night Shyamalan has started recording YouTube videos. He's only made two so far, but he actually goes back to when he was recording and directing some of the most famous things that he's ever and he's looking at his day-by-day note diary and he's actually reliving for the first time when he was recording on

1:14:03 set when 9/11 happened. And all it was truly one of the most like mind-blowing YouTube videos I've seen all year. So, I'm just imagining that you in like 5 10 years from now are going to be doing the same thing. You're going to be wanting to know how this experience was when Chronicles of Byron's took off to the millions and how your daily feelings are now compared to in 5 10 years from now. So, it's going to be fascinating to look at that because yeah, I didn't ever expect he would do a YouTube I look at that yeah, like that, you know, like when I first started so like Chronicles launched November 4th of last year and I I remember when I made it like the first prologues only 90 seconds and I did that intentional because starting something entirely new I and at that point Instagram was my biggest audience and you know the way Instagram prioritizes reels like

How Chronicles launched and why the prologues came first

1:14:56 90 seconds or less to show it to new audiences and things like that. So it was like all done intentional and uh I remember when I showed the guys like Mike and Sav and I I was like I think this is the best thing that I made [clears throat] to date and I was like this is you know what I'm going to do and then started continuing that and then I remember like when I told my manager about it and he was like I don't get it. And I was like don't worry I'll show I'll show you. And then you know like I think it was after the third prologue with the collector was when like you know all the deals and things started happening and and stuff like that. but yeah I mean like I had some meetings prior to that third prologue which was like the first one that got like a million views and really popped and all of that which is the collector um who's like when I do polls on YouTube

1:15:48 he always polls as the the most favorite character of the series. Like like yeah it's always him and then Tink is like right under him. And so uh but I remember yeah like in some of the meetings I had with studios like showing them like the look book for uh for prologue three like I had like all the because this is like you know prologue three was still back in in VO days so like before you can use uh references. So like where you had to you know animate from a from a a still starting image and so you have to build each frame essentially as a still and so like I had like all the stills in order of like you know this is what the episode's going to look like and they were just like yeah I don't you know like I it's we it has like you're doing what it has King Arthur and these other characters and I was like yeah I was like I was like all the characters in one world and

1:16:40 they're like okay you know like just like I think you know, like one of the things was like, "Oh, like like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and I was like, "Yes, but but and I still like I love League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, not like the story's terrible and stuff, but like some of the art design in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is awesome. Like Nemo's Nemo's ship in that one's really dope and the car, the like Rolls-Royce that he has in in that is so cool. Um so, yeah, but but yeah, it was it's it's it's crazy to see you know, I mean it's definitely far surpassed the even my expectations. It's amazing, dude. Honestly, I don't know anyone that doesn't know it in this space now. And and much wider than this space. You've penetrated like way wider than AI, which

1:17:30 I think is so good for onboarding people at seeing what this can do. But yeah, hearing about the evolution of it now is kind of funny. Like and it's so good that you remember every single part of it and you know, keep that because these I don't I don't think in our lifetime we'll ever experience something like this. You know, the VO thing as you said, but Runway, if we go from Runway 1 to Seedance 2.5, the leap right there is unbelievable. And I know that Seedance 3 and 4 will continue to get incredible and we'll get closer and closer to just straight up anything we want. But I still think that this golden era is going to be quite memorable as like the takeoff period and your show standing above others and really leading the way for a lot of other people and stuff. It's awesome, dude. Like Yeah,

1:18:23 I mean, you know, for me like I think the biggest takeaway from it is for anyone that's creating something, you know, outside of of Mike and Sav, pretty much everyone else in that beginning phase didn't get it, didn't understand it, and like necessarily didn't believe in it. And I think you as a creator have to understand that is like if you write something and it's near and dear to your heart and you feel like man this this is exceptional this is incredible and then maybe you tell some some business partners or friends or whatever and if they're like don't let that deter you because like if you feel it in your soul and you and it and it has that connective tissue that will shine through so just start doing it and

1:19:17 and and you know and then like the results the results will come through through persistence and and I've always been a big believer that good storytelling will rise to the top like it always does it always will. I I couldn't agree more and it's so good again hearing that from you. When I first saw Echo Hunter I just was like I need to know more about what this guy makes and then as soon as the next stuff start coming out I was just like oh my god here we go you know like the series is on and it's just growing and growing and growing. Is this halfway through this series now is the last question? Are you in the back half of this series now? I'm in the back half of season 1 so the show you're it's a five season show. There's three more episodes of season 1 six seven and eight and then every subsequent season will have 10 episodes. So

1:20:08 seasons two three four and five will have 10. this season you know has eight because technically there's already the like the prologue season is a season itself like we can call that season zero. And then now we're in season 1. because that was the other you know calculated point from that was the reason why I did the prologue season was because knowing I had so many characters in this story and to launch a show not on a major streaming platform but on YouTube. Uh I didn't want to start right away in like chapter one and be jumping around from all these characters because then people would be like, "Who is this? Why do I care? What's happening?" And so what my plan was in every prologue is singular focus. We just stay with one character for each prologue episode. So then like we actually get

1:21:00 introduced like, "This is who this is. This is who this is." It's about establishing establishing the main players for season one. And then season one allowed me once I did that to then be able to like, "Okay, now we're here. Now we're here. Now we're here." because everyone already now knows these are the players of of the of the first As well as you said it earlier, the advantageous 50 references from season 2.5 now coming at the perfect time for the show really cruxing it with max characters in lots of scenes and stuff like that. But without further ado, guys, get your questions ready. We're going to watch part three. Let's check it out. Come on, man. The

CHAPTER 5, PART THREE

1:21:59 fun is just getting started. We have to get Tink. She's hurt. Where are you, you stupid [__] There you are. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.

1:23:17 Heal from that. You piece of [__] I should have known you'd partner with You're pathetic. Go ahead. Do it. And who the hell is this? Touch

1:24:16 me and you are dead. You hear me? So, what shall we do today, Tink? I do not care how you do it, Lothar, but I don't want to hear of this outlaw any Death is so boring, my brother. I'll have fun with the outlaw. Stay here and gather

1:25:15 two more companies. I don't know if she is alone, but but something tells me she is not. Yes, my prince. Wait till they are grouped in the middle, even if we are all dead. Once they are grouped, send everything. And whatever happens, do not let her It's a trap. He set a trap. We

1:26:04 have to go now. The boy, he's

1:26:59 not going to make it. There's too many of them. Cover the boy and

1:27:48 get [music] them out of here. Get out of here. Come on. Get the

1:29:39 horses ready. [music] We have to go now. Where's Little John? Breaking god, dude. The melancholy

Breakdown: Jackal's blood magic and the reverse trap

1:31:01 violin at the end had me had me going. It was a underneath all of that. And Little John. And no, Little John. A lot lot lot to unpack in the the end there. So, um I'll try and go through as much of it as I as I can. So, in regards to like why does Tink not slice and dice Larcade right there? from their perspective, they don't think a reverse trap is coming. So, Larcade isn't incapacitated. He's down. The idea is that like, okay, let's say if no they didn't know like, let's say they knew no other army was coming. Even if Larcade threw Jackal, she's just going to go back in, you know, cut him up, be done with it. But, the whole plan is So, Jackal has a power called blood magic. And blood magic, we've only seen it by from two other characters in the show so far who have it. It's a

1:31:52 very rare type of magic and it can only be passed down through birth. And so, in the previous episode, when Tink like why she doesn't trust him is because she always says all the people she's ever met with blood magic are monsters. Um and they usually are like very shady characters. One of them being Vivian, who's the Lady of the Lake, who created [clears throat] Excalibur, and the other one being the blind witch, who used to be old until Desmond bitter, and then she became young and you know now she's now she's a vampire. and so and then there's Jackal. And Tink has asked Jackal like like like who were your parents? And then he kind of explains them away as like not you know like of any one of importance, which that's why Tink doesn't buy that because you know she believes he is lying. So that's another great uh mystery of the show is is who like is Jackal telling the truth or who are Jackal's

1:32:45 actual parents. Um and so the idea though here is to use Jackal's blood magic to get uh insight into because you know the way Robin Hood and his whole camp works is to essentially liberate cities from the Mordane Empire. Like essentially go in, wipe out all the Mordane in that city, and set the that city free, and then move on. And I kind of took that as inspiration from original Robin Hood lore of like you you know he gives he steals from the rich and gives to the Right. Right. In this interpretation of it is that he's liberating cities and giving them back to the city so they can be independent under uh without being under Mordane rule. So that that's like what the plan is It's just that as Jackal is going his memories, he stumbles upon that memory of

1:33:37 of Mordane like what happened you know pretty much right before they started walking to Tink of him telling that blood guard like you know hold back and everything, and wait even if we're all dead it doesn't matter. Wait till they're all like grouped in a tight little area and then just [__] surround and come from every angle. And that's what Jackal sees and then he tells them but it's too late. and then you know, we have all the the subsequent things that happen. This also a lot of what happens in that final sequence puts a lot of things in motion of where like where we're going over the next couple episodes. Um and uh you know naturally, I mean we will see I don't want to give away any spoilers, but obviously naturally this is going to have some impact on Jackal and

1:34:29 Tink's You know, and Tink, you know, she she took a bit of a beating there. Uh like uh and and then oh and then another thing I saw in a comment like that she changes her size. So yes, Tink's size can change. Her natural size is about a foot and a half. So you know, like maybe about like that big, but then she can shrink. Very similar to Anna. She can't grow like Anna and become like a giant, but she can she can grow from like her natural size and then like shrink bitty bitty down. So like that's how she's like able to fly into eyeballs and then pop out of them and and do like that. Yeah, so she she has that that that's like another one of her powers is being able to to kind of change, but I always kind of like envisioned her like a little bit bigger than like a Barbie doll like in the sense of like her her native size. Um And so yeah, like a

1:35:21 lot goes in on that that last bit that specifically we will see you know, the ramifications of of what of what this all ends up leading to. I love the lore. You know, I was in Sherwood Forest 2 weeks ago with my wife and kids, which was pretty awesome. You know, the original Robin Hood forest uh and they pretty pretty you know, they they make a lot out of it as they should do, you know, even though it was like um yeah, it's just kind of crazy how much they they have statues and stuff around and like that you know stuff you can go and see and with your kids and I would I would love to see that. You have to come see it. I mean truly you of all people need to actually come see this. It is pretty amazing. Yeah, my wife's from there like Nottingham Derby way which is where Sherwood Forest is and they have an

Sherwood Forest, IMAX in London and Upscale

1:36:11 amazing like yeah resort but yeah when you were over here we are very excited. Speaking of that actually um I'm it's crazy what's going on over here at the moment and tomorrow in London hosting this thing um with the Bionic Awards and they're getting something the winner is on the IMAX which is like the first time in it's the first time in the UK anything AI has been shown on the IMAX which is part of this competition I'm hosting. I saw earlier too that Shake and Jeremy has been so awesome and um are you still there Jeremy? Give me a comment if you are. I saw you commenting earlier that you were tuning in. I'm going to be going to the birthplace of cinema to host a hundred directors in the birthplace of cinema in the little small French town where cinema was

1:37:02 born and Jeremy who's watching kindly invited me to moderate this hundred directors thing. Oh there he is. And uh yes I was um thinking about you with this obviously. You really should and deserve to be amongst those hundred directors that are being interviewed in the birthplace of cinema but it is coming up and I know your schedule's kind of crazy. But uh a little bit uh this month uh for the for the next few months but you know potentially you know could be having some some travels here soon. Uh definitely will be in Spain uh with my amazing yeah with my amazing partner Magnific. Um you know you know you know all of Chronicles of Bone is made inside Magnific, and and you know, they are just the absolute most amazing Um, and

1:37:53 you know, their tool is just exceptional, and they're always there for creators, and they really believe in the creator vision. But yeah, I'll be there for for their uh upscale in November 4th. Oh, that's awesome. I'm so happy that you're coming over to Europe, man. Oh my god, we can't wait to have you here. You're literally the number one podcast. It's going to be amazing. Well, we still have 10 minutes, but I want to like get your day going because you've started so early with us. You've been so gracious. You had a meeting right before this. So, I want to let you go early because I think you need 10 minutes just to like, you know, get on with your day. You're going to have so much after this, and I I appreciate you for I'm about to I'm about to have my my second cup of coffee. Got a couple more meetings for the day, and then uh and then back in the grind for for the next episode. I was Last time you left us with your cat

1:38:44 situation and the vet, I was just like, "No, I hope that cat All is good. All is good. Everything worked out. It was all great. Uh I mean, definitely a scare, but no, he's super healthy, all of that. So, thank you. Yeah, that was you were just the best doing that, you know, tuning in even though all of that situation was going on. You're working so many hours in the day, and I really do appreciate you joining in and wanting to join in, you know, even messaging me to come on the show, and you're welcome anytime. Every episode, we want you to come back on the show, basically. We'll definitely have to we'll have to do it when we get to in December for the season finale without question because uh I'm I'm so curious as to like how people will interpret that one. Uh it's, you know, it's it's it's a doozy of an episode. Um but I definitely think in the in the meantime, you know, the

Mike, Sav, Ace and Rafa

1:39:36 uh you know, Mike, Sav, Ace, and Rafa, having them come on, I mean, all four of their shows and what they're doing, I mean, they're just Crushing it, man. They're just so incredible. Like, it's it's out of this world, you know, like every story is so so unique. And like, you know, like like with Mike and Sav's show, they're nearing the end of of their first season. So, you know, they're getting close to to their their climactic endings as well for season 1. And then, you know, Ace and Rafa, I mean, you know, Ace has been doing Red Rainbow for forever. It's just now like we're in the narrative like format of it, which has been so cool to explore as Oh, we're following along on the regular show on Tuesday. Every single episode we're watching it. It's amazing, dude. Your whole squad is so stacked. And like

1:40:28 you said, such different talents and different storytelling methodologies and stuff like that. I think what we'll do is probably have like because these episodes on a Wednesday are for the creator sessions with individuals. But we we could do a totally group version of this as well. Yours would be our first group like version of the creator sessions. And then, because on Tuesday we watch all the episodes. So, it's just taking the Tuesday audience over to the Wednesday real recognizing we get to see the people behind the This this coming Tuesday, like I said yesterday, was Sav's episode. And then, this coming Tuesday is the new episode of The Siege from Mike. And I know it's going to be, you know, like a heater because the tension's on on The Siege and then have been building, you know, substantially. So, yeah, it's it's going to be going to be a heater. Well, we already know what we're going to be watching next Tuesday then,

1:41:18 which is perfect timing, honestly. And yeah. So good to have you on. Those have got follow-up questions for Kavan, go follow him on socials. If you're not already, what the hell are you doing? You know, go to the YouTube, look at the comments, look at all of the amazing audience there, and the positive slow in responding, I apologize. I try I try to like write I really do try to write back as much as I can, but at the same time like I also have to gen for 16 hours, so. doing that than commenting back to every comment, you know, we we want to know what you I'm always very on on release day. I I I literally don't schedule anything on any release day because I spend that day writing back to everybody. Like I try to like at least dedicate one day to like to be interactive with the whole community

1:42:09 and you know, like no matter what happens in life and and all that stuff. Um like I'm always just forever thankful to everyone that supports the show, watches it, um you know, supports what we do at Phantom and all that stuff. So like, you know, I always just want to be able to to to give as much as I can, you know, within within the ability that I can. No one gives more. That's the craziest thing. People don't understand how you even do it, let alone running Phantom X, you know, creating these episodes in the time in which you do so. I ignored I'm going to just going to be frank with you guys like, you know, the credit questions and stuff because it's a silly question really when, you know, you're the original of Magnific. I'm I'm guessing you're not really noticing even how many tokens and stuff you're using. Although you did mention earlier in the show that it's a lot less now which he does 2.5 potentially uh

What an episode actually costs in credits

1:43:00 just because there's less gens to get the right cut and stuff like that which is something that we 100%. Yeah, like I mean, my ratio in 2.0 was like something like 90 to 1. Like 90 gens for one usable shot and I think now it's down to like like about on a high day, it's like 30 to 1. And then like on a non-high day, it's like 20 to 1. So like it's like floating in that that range now. So it went down you know, substantially. And then sometimes with like certain dialogue scenes and stuff like that, I can get as low as like like between eight to one or 12 to one. So like, you know, like it definitely can get, you know, lower and stuff. So yeah, it just um Uh yeah. No, that's totally fair. You know, it wasn't a silly question. You're right, Glory House. It is this you know, it's one of those things that I see a lot of people asking about credits and stuff

1:43:52 and it's really Yeah, I mean like real I'll be you know, really frank like to do like because credit costs are so expensive um in in the gens and all that stuff. I uh you know, it can vary, but you know, it's it's tens of thousands of dollars um if you were to pay for the credits to make something in that like like like that last episode like a 20 27 minute 28 minute range. If that you're probably going to come into that that price point. Um and you know, that's not including, you know, uh uh all the image generations you're doing, you know, like every time a character changes, you're changing their character sheet or their looks, you all the props you have to make, all the locations you have to make, all the different angles. You know, like there's there there's so many uh additional credit spends in in that in that element, too. And then, you know, then you have your music credits. Um

1:44:45 and then you have, you know, just the credit credits everywhere. True. I like this question from Jeremy to close this out. Do you consider yourself a filmmaker or an AI filmmaker? And is there a distinguishing thing even Uh I mean I just consider myself a filmmaker. You know, I come from traditional film. That's, you know, what I that was what paid my bills all the way up until doing AI and and Mike Sav and I launching Phantom in January 1st of 2025. Um so yeah, you know, just just a filmmaker. I mean at the end of the day we're we're telling stories. We're just using, you know, a tool that's available to us because you know, even though that like I said it's like tens of thousands of dollars to make an episode like that in credits, if I was to go make Chronicles of Bone live action, Oh my god. [__] 10 we're talking, you know,

Filmmaker, or AI filmmaker?

1:45:35 like probably like on a low end still would be like 10 million, you know, dollars an episode. Oh, and I think and I think it probably would be more than that. I mean like with size and scope, VFX, all of that stuff. Like if AI didn't exist, you know, and and that's kind of the beauty of of AI's um Like I never would ever I never ever ever would have been able to make this story without it because no studio would have taken a chance on it. So, the avenues I would have had to have gone to like realistically do it, you know, is like make a different film, uh you know, have lightning in a bottle like Curry what he did with Obsession, and then, you know, and then the doors of Hollywood open, and then even then you probably still have to make another movie, hit that out of the park in the box office, and then

1:46:25 Hollywood would be like, "Okay, yeah, let's let's take a chance on this this fantasy conglomerate thing you've written, you know, and let's see how that does." Or you have to go write it as a book and then hope the book is a massive success or a graphic novel and hope it's a massive success to the point where like, you know, because when it comes to these kind of stories, Hollywood will want if they're going to be spending that price tag on something is they want a pre-baked in fan base, so they know that like right out the gate there's going to be people watching it and they're not having to get people over to watch it. And even when you look at like the first season of Game of Thrones first like the last season of Game of Thrones, even the last season was terrible, but I'm just saying on the production value. Like the cost, I mean, you know, the first season if you watch like, you know, there's a little very little fight fights in it. It's a lot of talking. It's

1:47:15 like very much like not a ton of characters except for certain scenes, you know, like like it's a much more contained because of the budget they had to live within. And it's like that with all productions. You look at the first season of Stranger Things versus the last season kind of things. Like all of these shows they start much more smaller, contained. And then as their success grows, their budget grows. Yeah, because as the renewal goes up each season, you're getting more and more ambitious and you get more and more budget to do more and more ambitious things. It's a natural cycle, right? Like and I think Tires, which is my favorite like Netflix one at the moment from Shane Gillis. He just got Yes, that show was so funny. He makes me laugh and I'm like, you know, fourth season money is serious money now. Yeah, I can expect to like a lot more production value. It is hard with Net with

1:48:05 Netflix to get to four seasons. It's hard, you know. Not a lot of shows that cross that mark, you know. I'm still I'm still so chapped, but I get it because the audience didn't catch on till way later, but and the production budget was too high, but I'm still chapped that Mind Hunter ended at season two. Like I will always and forever be that because that show was so good. It was so so good. And like it's just like, oh man, like I just dream of what Mind Hunter season three would have been like. Oh my god, there's a few of those actually that have like been abandoned at certain series where you're like, oh, just society wasn't ready for it or you know, we didn't have the pandemic to blow it up or something so it got the exposure it deserved and I would love them to revisit a few series that they sort of abandoned on the one, two, you know,

1:48:56 didn't make it to three. Oh man, there's a few of them. Oh man. of you know, it's like that's kind of the nature of the beast, you know, with with this stuff is you know, if you don't get the because it could you could even make such an exceptional show, but if like it, you know, a lot of times, you know, a great podcast that I watched, they don't do it anymore, but they were doing it, was the guys from It's Always Sunny in I love those guys. I love those guys. They they did a podcast where they were rewatching all of the episodes. Yeah, it was great. I loved it. Yeah, and one of the things that I took away from it that was crazy is, you uh one after season one, uh which uh doesn't have Danny DeVito, it didn't get the viewership that they wanted even though FX liked it, but it wasn't

Distribution, and the shows that took five seasons to land

1:49:48 there. And then they essentially were like, "Look, Danny DeVito's in it, or you guys don't have a show." Yeah, yeah. And so they were like, "All right, I guess Danny DeVito's in the show." You know, which obviously Danny DeVito's character is amazing. Like like it had it's it added so much, but like they got positioned back, and then I think it's Rob McElhenney, well now he just goes by Rob Mac. he he had made a point and said that like viewership-wise, like he was shocked that FX kept renewing it because they didn't actually become like like I am like according to like their metrics until like season five or six. It took that long for Sunny to like finally like become like what it is today, you know? Um and so it shows that like you know, you can have a great idea and and and all of this stuff, and and that's you know, that's where the the you

1:50:41 know, there's there's all these elements to it. It's not just like making something great of like when you're working on these projects is then you have to like look at like how you distribute it, how you get people to see it, how you know, you get get awareness around it because you know, that it will spread if it's good. Like if you the more eyeballs you get on it, people like it, then it creates the whole like, "Oh my gosh, you know, like when you whenever you tell anyone about a book, a show, or this like you're like, 'Oh man, have you seen this? Have you read this? It's so good.'" But like you have to work on creating that that buzz however, you know, however you can and and exploring all the avenues to do that. Absolutely. And I think that's another thing we'll talk about next time you're on because Black Flight is talking distribution. And a few people that have gone, you know, certain channels like Roku and others. And you know, they're all packaging stuff now because they understand the ways in

1:51:31 which people want it to be on their platform. Also, what does well, what gets renewed, you know, the genres that people are looking for. It's fascinating, honestly, like hearing all of this. And it's so bleeding edge with everybody. It's so good that you're being so, you know, discussing it with others that aren't thinking about this and how to package things and how to get things distributed because they aren't, trust me. You know, they're just making things for YouTube algorithms at the moment or Instagram algorithms and not thinking about the distributor, you know, the end point of where it actually wants to be put, like. So, they're playing an algorithm game rather than what the distributor wants. Um and that's going to be a clash of things, I think, in the next year or so. Uh but, yeah. 100%. I I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Yeah, let's let you go anyway. You're overtime now. You no doubt have other people for being late to stuff. You're the best, man.

1:52:23 We'll see you it. You're the best. Thank you so much. Like, seriously, always an honor to be here, man. You're the best.